Hi Group,

I am currently attending a flying school Part 61. Since I've been
playing Flight Sim for about 15 years, on my first lesson I was able to
land the airplane right away. Thanks to Microsoft Flight Simulator.
I believed that I am a step or two step ahead compared to other student
that never realy see a cockpit or play a simulator before. Is there any
body can help me to set up a better program for me. I give my self a
target that in 45 hours I will get my PPL, It sounds funy but flight
simulator really helps me on practice and understanding how the system
works.
In this school I have to spent at least 30 hour dual flight until they
release me a solo, and learn about the radio communications and trafic
pattern on the very last section. Is this a good program or jsut trying
to get as much as hour from me. I heart a rumors that the Instructor
also wants you fly as much as possible so they will earn the hours
while I am paying it.
Please I need your Input. My Budget only $3,000. This is something that
I always wanted to do, but since I jsut have a baby I have to shrink
the budget.

Thank you for your help

oscarm wrote:
> Hi Group,
>
> I am currently attending a flying school Part 61. ...

> In this school I have to spent at least 30 hour dual flight until they
> release me a solo, and learn about the radio communications and trafic
> pattern on the very last section. ...
>
> Thank you for your help
>

Sounds very suspect to me. Shop around before you commit to flying in
their program.

Solo at a controlled airport as base and using nearby
uncontrolled airports for practice and first solo can be
done in 12-15 hours and includes using the radio from the
first flight. By the time you are at 30 hours you could
have some solo cross country. Sounds to me lie that school
is padding the dual early. If you are in certain areas, LA
Basin, NYC metro, it might take longer.

Flight sim "games" can teach you good and bad habits. If
you practice in the sim what you're doing in your lesson
plan, it can be useful. If you are just playing around,
you'll probably develop bad habits and have tom spend time
to unlearn those habits.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

"oscarm" > wrote in message
oups.com...
| Hi Group,
|
| I am currently attending a flying school Part 61. Since
I've been
| playing Flight Sim for about 15 years, on my first lesson
I was able to
| land the airplane right away. Thanks to Microsoft Flight
Simulator.
| I believed that I am a step or two step ahead compared to
other student
| that never realy see a cockpit or play a simulator before.
Is there any
| body can help me to set up a better program for me. I give
my self a
| target that in 45 hours I will get my PPL, It sounds funy
but flight
| simulator really helps me on practice and understanding
how the system
| works.
| In this school I have to spent at least 30 hour dual
flight until they
| release me a solo, and learn about the radio
communications and trafic
| pattern on the very last section. Is this a good program
or jsut trying
| to get as much as hour from me. I heart a rumors that the
Instructor
| also wants you fly as much as possible so they will earn
the hours
| while I am paying it.
| Please I need your Input. My Budget only $3,000. This is
something that
| I always wanted to do, but since I jsut have a baby I have
to shrink
| the budget.
|
| Thank you for your help
|

On 2006-08-21, oscarm > wrote:
> target that in 45 hours I will get my PPL,
>
> In this school I have to spent at least 30 hour dual flight until they
> release me a solo,

From what I've seen, the amount of time to solo varies quite a bit, but
most people finish about 30 hours after they solo. If you've flown 30
hours already, I doubt that you can finish in 45 hours total. Also,
if you were able to land on your first lesson, with the right instructor
you should have been able to solo sooner.

The good news is, no one is shooting for the lowest total time except
primary students. If you had no money to fly after getting your license,
you don't really lose much by flying a few more of the hours with an
instructor. In fact, if you do plan to stop flying after you get your
PPL, you should work on getting signed off for your solo cross countries
and fly those before you quit. I rank those right up with first solo and
getting my PPL.

--
Ben Jackson AD7GD
>
http://www.ben.com/

"oscarm" > writes:

> I am currently attending a flying school Part 61. [...] In this
> school I have to spent at least 30 hour dual flight until they
> release me a solo [...]

Others have commented on the suspiciousness of this requirement.

> Please I need your Input. My Budget only $3,000. This is something
> that I always wanted to do, but since I jsut have a baby I have to
> shrink the budget.

In your circumstances, perhaps it may be appropriate to defer your own
proper training, and befriend another local pilot. You could still
experience flight, learn a bit, but not undertake the full financial &
corporal risks involved.

- FChE

"oscarm" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> I give my self a
> target that in 45 hours I will get my PPL, It sounds funy but flight
> simulator really helps me on practice and understanding how the system
> works.

PC-based flight sims can be a very useful tool. I found them particularly
useful when I was doing my IMC rating (a UK-specific cut-down alternative to
the instrument rating) because it helps you get used to setting beacon
frequencies, identifying stations, setting up approaches, flying the ILS or
ADF indicators, and so on. Do remember, though, that the PC simulator can
let you get away with some pretty horrific manoeuvres that when tried in
real life could well get you (a) arrested or (b) killed!

> In this school I have to spent at least 30 hour dual flight until they
> release me a solo, and learn about the radio communications and trafic
> pattern on the very last section.

Blimey. You should smell a rat. Over here in the UK, you can get a National
PPL with just over 30 hours total time! I went solo after 13 hours, and the
majority of students I know have done so before 20 hours. If they're not
letting you solo until 30 hours, there's something weird going on.

Also, you should be doing at least a part of the radio communications within
5-10 hours. The way my instructor did it was to give me a few lessons to
figure out how this flying concept works, then to get me to do more and more
radio as time went by. So initially it might be asking for taxi, take-off
and landing clearances, then handovers from one controller to another, then
something else, and so on and so on, eventually doing practice emergency
calls and training fixes (where you actually talk on the emergency
frequencies and simulate an emergency).

> Is this a good program or jsut trying
> to get as much as hour from me. I heart a rumors that the Instructor
> also wants you fly as much as possible so they will earn the hours
> while I am paying it.

Depends on the type of instructor you have. In order to get airline
transport licences, a pilot has to have a certain number of hours as
pilot-in-command of an aircraft; one way of getting these hours is to spend
them sitting beside a student, because the student's paying for the rent of
the aircraft. This doesn't automatically mean that the instructor is bad -
I've been with three hours-building instructors of this type who were all
excellent - but in some cases the instructor doesn't give a stuff and is
just using the role to build his or her hours (and a friend of mine has
suffered at the hands of one of those).

> Please I need your Input. My Budget only $3,000. This is something that
> I always wanted to do, but since I jsut have a baby I have to shrink
> the budget.

You'll be doing well to fit it into $3,000 with any school, but the school
you're describing sounds like it'll be way more expensive.

David C

"oscarm" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Hi Group,
>
> I am currently attending a flying school Part 61. Since I've been
> playing Flight Sim for about 15 years, on my first lesson I was able to
> land the airplane right away. Thanks to Microsoft Flight Simulator.
> I believed that I am a step or two step ahead compared to other student
> that never realy see a cockpit or play a simulator before. Is there any
> body can help me to set up a better program for me. I give my self a
> target that in 45 hours I will get my PPL, It sounds funy but flight
> simulator really helps me on practice and understanding how the system
> works.
> In this school I have to spent at least 30 hour dual flight until they
> release me a solo, and learn about the radio communications and trafic
> pattern on the very last section. Is this a good program or jsut trying
> to get as much as hour from me. I heart a rumors that the Instructor
> also wants you fly as much as possible so they will earn the hours
> while I am paying it.
> Please I need your Input. My Budget only $3,000. This is something that
> I always wanted to do, but since I jsut have a baby I have to shrink
> the budget.
>
> Thank you for your help
>

Get out of that school and go find a CFI at your local FBO/flight school.

You'll save thousands over that school and the CFI will teach you at your
own pace (which sounds like it'll be pretty fast)

HI David,

Thanks for your input. Basically i am just aiming for PPL and not an
Airlines pilot. Yes that is true I did some research and $3,000 is firt
with a student that committet and learn as hard as possible. I probably
will ask the instructore to combine some lesson into one sessions, for
example 1 hour Steep turn introduction, 1 hour slow flight
introduction, 1 hour stall introduction is add up to 3 hours, I perhaps
wants to do it all of them in 1.5 hours. Yes it is true that SIM helps
a lot on flight plannig, and instrument rating.
Thank you for your input. Of course i just flown my first hour last
week, on the next two lesson, i'll ask him to teach me the radio comm.

Thank you


David Cartwright wrote:
> "oscarm" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> > I give my self a
> > target that in 45 hours I will get my PPL, It sounds funy but flight
> > simulator really helps me on practice and understanding how the system
> > works.
>
> PC-based flight sims can be a very useful tool. I found them particularly
> useful when I was doing my IMC rating (a UK-specific cut-down alternative to
> the instrument rating) because it helps you get used to setting beacon
> frequencies, identifying stations, setting up approaches, flying the ILS or
> ADF indicators, and so on. Do remember, though, that the PC simulator can
> let you get away with some pretty horrific manoeuvres that when tried in
> real life could well get you (a) arrested or (b) killed!
>
> > In this school I have to spent at least 30 hour dual flight until they
> > release me a solo, and learn about the radio communications and trafic
> > pattern on the very last section.
>
> Blimey. You should smell a rat. Over here in the UK, you can get a National
> PPL with just over 30 hours total time! I went solo after 13 hours, and the
> majority of students I know have done so before 20 hours. If they're not
> letting you solo until 30 hours, there's something weird going on.
>
> Also, you should be doing at least a part of the radio communications within
> 5-10 hours. The way my instructor did it was to give me a few lessons to
> figure out how this flying concept works, then to get me to do more and more
> radio as time went by. So initially it might be asking for taxi, take-off
> and landing clearances, then handovers from one controller to another, then
> something else, and so on and so on, eventually doing practice emergency
> calls and training fixes (where you actually talk on the emergency
> frequencies and simulate an emergency).
>
> > Is this a good program or jsut trying
> > to get as much as hour from me. I heart a rumors that the Instructor
> > also wants you fly as much as possible so they will earn the hours
> > while I am paying it.
>
> Depends on the type of instructor you have. In order to get airline
> transport licences, a pilot has to have a certain number of hours as
> pilot-in-command of an aircraft; one way of getting these hours is to spend
> them sitting beside a student, because the student's paying for the rent of
> the aircraft. This doesn't automatically mean that the instructor is bad -
> I've been with three hours-building instructors of this type who were all
> excellent - but in some cases the instructor doesn't give a stuff and is
> just using the role to build his or her hours (and a friend of mine has
> suffered at the hands of one of those).
>
> > Please I need your Input. My Budget only $3,000. This is something that
> > I always wanted to do, but since I jsut have a baby I have to shrink
> > the budget.
>
> You'll be doing well to fit it into $3,000 with any school, but the school
> you're describing sounds like it'll be way more expensive.
>
> David C

Hi Ben, thatnsk for your respond.
I just flown my first hour last week. And still more to come. If I
follow the schedule on their program, it will take 25 meeting until it
gets to pre solo one and pre solo two.
I'll have another lesson this comming weekend and see if he use all of
the 2 hours time just to introdue Steep turn.
my target is maximum 13-15 hours dual and the rest are solo. Is this
sounds reasonable?




Ben Jackson wrote:
> On 2006-08-21, oscarm > wrote:
> > target that in 45 hours I will get my PPL,
> >
> > In this school I have to spent at least 30 hour dual flight until they
> > release me a solo,
>
> From what I've seen, the amount of time to solo varies quite a bit, but
> most people finish about 30 hours after they solo. If you've flown 30
> hours already, I doubt that you can finish in 45 hours total. Also,
> if you were able to land on your first lesson, with the right instructor
> you should have been able to solo sooner.
>
> The good news is, no one is shooting for the lowest total time except
> primary students. If you had no money to fly after getting your license,
> you don't really lose much by flying a few more of the hours with an
> instructor. In fact, if you do plan to stop flying after you get your
> PPL, you should work on getting signed off for your solo cross countries
> and fly those before you quit. I rank those right up with first solo and
> getting my PPL.
>
> --
> Ben Jackson AD7GD
> >
> http://www.ben.com/

oscarm wrote
> my target is maximum 13-15 hours dual and the rest are solo. Is this
> sounds reasonable?

You still haven't told us where you are located, and we certainly
can't answer your questions without knowing what regulations you
will be studying under. It doesn't sound as if English is your
native language?

Bob Moore

Hi Bob,

Thanks for your respond.
The airport is located at the E Class Airspace in Southern California.
My instructor always told me about the benefit to learn at the airport
with Class E airspace, which is probably true.
The reason that I put a target to my self, is to find out if the
simualtor really helps or not, and to find out if I still able to
compete with my self and my will. Its just a challange that will
motivate me to learn as hard as possible. Everybody can get PPL in
60-70 hours and everbody can finish university in 4-6 years, but whats
unique about that? nothing. Challance is like an exitement in life.
That is why I need some input from all the people in this room who has
thausands thausands hour of flying about a challanging and exiting PPL
program structure.
About my english, I still have to speak and write in English and
Chinese on daily basis. Especailly at home, since i am a thirth
generation here, I still pretty much attach to my grand-parents
language. So appologize if the grammer a little off guess.

Appreciate in advance for your input.





Bob Moore wrote:
> oscarm wrote
> > my target is maximum 13-15 hours dual and the rest are solo. Is this
> > sounds reasonable?
>
> You still haven't told us where you are located, and we certainly
> can't answer your questions without knowing what regulations you
> will be studying under. It doesn't sound as if English is your
> native language?
>
> Bob Moore

"oscarm" > writes:

>Hi Group,

>I am currently attending a flying school Part 61. Since I've been
>playing Flight Sim for about 15 years, on my first lesson I was able to
>land the airplane right away. Thanks to Microsoft Flight Simulator.
>I believed that I am a step or two step ahead compared to other student
>that never realy see a cockpit or play a simulator before. Is there any
>body can help me to set up a better program for me. I give my self a
>target that in 45 hours I will get my PPL, It sounds funy but flight
>simulator really helps me on practice and understanding how the system
>works.
>In this school I have to spent at least 30 hour dual flight until they
>release me a solo, and learn about the radio communications and trafic
>pattern on the very last section. Is this a good program or jsut trying
>to get as much as hour from me. I heart a rumors that the Instructor
>also wants you fly as much as possible so they will earn the hours
>while I am paying it.
>Please I need your Input. My Budget only $3,000. This is something that
>I always wanted to do, but since I jsut have a baby I have to shrink
>the budget.

>Thank you for your help

Welcome to the newsgroup.

Like the other folks who have responded, I'm concerned about the
requirement of thirty hours dual before you solo. I soloed after seven
hours of dual, and like you, I thank my experience with many flight
simulator programs. Of course, flight simulators were a little different
twenty years ago, but the basics don't really change. Unless you're
having trouble learning and demonstrating the necessary skills for your
first solo, there's no reason you shouldn't be able to solo in less time
than you were quoted. If they -require- thirty hours, you should take your
logbook and your checkbook, and go somewhere else, without spending any
more money with these people.

Learning at an airport in a Class E airspace (which we call a UNICOM
field, because it doesn't have a tower) has the advantage of doing more
flying and less talking on the radio. Still, if you are going to be a
pilot in California, you'll find you need to do a lot of flying with air
traffic control, and towered fields, so don't be afraid to learn at an
airport with a control tower.

Lastly, that $3000 figure might be a problem. One thing about aviation,
everything costs a bit more than you think it will. As you continue
flying, you'll learn that you'll always be able to come up with more and
faster ways to spend your money. Unless you're willing to break your
budget on a somewhat regular basis, flying might not be for you.

You might want to check out AOPA's FAQs on this, at
http://flighttraining.aopa.org/student_pilot/presolo/faqs/
While you're there, maybe you will sign up for six free issues of Flight
Training magazine (click the "No Risk, enroll today") on that page.
An AOPA membership will let you read all the online content.
Note: I'm not affiliated with AOPA, but I AM a member.

Best of luck,

-Jack

HI Jack,

Thanks for your respond. you went soloed after jsut spent 7 hours, wow
thats a record so far i know. I dont think the program at my flying
school is set up that way. But 7 hours is too low for me, I am not
confident to do it in only 7 hours. I gave my self max of 13 hours, but
30 hours is seems way to much. Perhaps a $3000 budget is to low in
california and i dont mind paying more as long as they dont take an
advantage. 2 hours slow flight introduction i think that a little to
much. You are right about Class E airspace, can be a disadvantage also.
Thank you for your input, its really helps and I will defiinitely sign
up with AOPA.

Thank you

Jack Cunniff wrote:
> "oscarm" > writes:
>
> >Hi Group,
>
> >I am currently attending a flying school Part 61. Since I've been
> >playing Flight Sim for about 15 years, on my first lesson I was able to
> >land the airplane right away. Thanks to Microsoft Flight Simulator.
> >I believed that I am a step or two step ahead compared to other student
> >that never realy see a cockpit or play a simulator before. Is there any
> >body can help me to set up a better program for me. I give my self a
> >target that in 45 hours I will get my PPL, It sounds funy but flight
> >simulator really helps me on practice and understanding how the system
> >works.
> >In this school I have to spent at least 30 hour dual flight until they
> >release me a solo, and learn about the radio communications and trafic
> >pattern on the very last section. Is this a good program or jsut trying
> >to get as much as hour from me. I heart a rumors that the Instructor
> >also wants you fly as much as possible so they will earn the hours
> >while I am paying it.
> >Please I need your Input. My Budget only $3,000. This is something that
> >I always wanted to do, but since I jsut have a baby I have to shrink
> >the budget.
>
> >Thank you for your help
>
> Welcome to the newsgroup.
>
> Like the other folks who have responded, I'm concerned about the
> requirement of thirty hours dual before you solo. I soloed after seven
> hours of dual, and like you, I thank my experience with many flight
> simulator programs. Of course, flight simulators were a little different
> twenty years ago, but the basics don't really change. Unless you're
> having trouble learning and demonstrating the necessary skills for your
> first solo, there's no reason you shouldn't be able to solo in less time
> than you were quoted. If they -require- thirty hours, you should take your
> logbook and your checkbook, and go somewhere else, without spending any
> more money with these people.
>
> Learning at an airport in a Class E airspace (which we call a UNICOM
> field, because it doesn't have a tower) has the advantage of doing more
> flying and less talking on the radio. Still, if you are going to be a
> pilot in California, you'll find you need to do a lot of flying with air
> traffic control, and towered fields, so don't be afraid to learn at an
> airport with a control tower.
>
> Lastly, that $3000 figure might be a problem. One thing about aviation,
> everything costs a bit more than you think it will. As you continue
> flying, you'll learn that you'll always be able to come up with more and
> faster ways to spend your money. Unless you're willing to break your
> budget on a somewhat regular basis, flying might not be for you.
>
> You might want to check out AOPA's FAQs on this, at
> http://flighttraining.aopa.org/student_pilot/presolo/faqs/
> While you're there, maybe you will sign up for six free issues of Flight
> Training magazine (click the "No Risk, enroll today") on that page.
> An AOPA membership will let you read all the online content.
> Note: I'm not affiliated with AOPA, but I AM a member.
>
> Best of luck,
>
> -Jack

"oscarm" > writes:

>HI Jack,

>Thanks for your respond. you went soloed after jsut spent 7 hours, wow
>thats a record so far i know. I dont think the program at my flying
>school is set up that way. But 7 hours is too low for me, I am not
>confident to do it in only 7 hours. I gave my self max of 13 hours, but
>30 hours is seems way to much. Perhaps a $3000 budget is to low in
>california and i dont mind paying more as long as they dont take an
>advantage. 2 hours slow flight introduction i think that a little to
>much. You are right about Class E airspace, can be a disadvantage also.
>Thank you for your input, its really helps and I will defiinitely sign
>up with AOPA.

You're welcome. Glad to help out.

Most important thing is that you get the opportunity to solo, when you are
ready to do so. If the flight school says you'll solo only after thirty
hours of dual, it's something I've never heard of, and it doesn't make
sense to me. Having said that, I'm not a CFI, nor do I want to be one.

Best of luck!

-Jack

I sort of take exception to the comment the "everybody/anybody" can get PPL
or finish university. Not everyone has the drive to see it to the end.
(sort of 99% perspiration 1% inspriration theory)

Flying is a real enjoyment and doing it just to do it "fast" just doesn't
seem to be a really good reason. Maybe the new sport pilot lic is where you
want to be. If you want to experience flight take a few lessons and havie
fun on the flight sim should do it. I'm not sure you will be that safe with
going for the min for everything. I trained in the East and learning to fly
all of the seasons was worth the investment.

Who knows maybe flying will turn into a love rather than a challange. Then
welcome to the club.


"oscarm" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Hi Bob,
>
> Thanks for your respond.
> The airport is located at the E Class Airspace in Southern California.
> My instructor always told me about the benefit to learn at the airport
> with Class E airspace, which is probably true.
> The reason that I put a target to my self, is to find out if the
> simualtor really helps or not, and to find out if I still able to
> compete with my self and my will. Its just a challange that will
> motivate me to learn as hard as possible. Everybody can get PPL in
> 60-70 hours and everbody can finish university in 4-6 years, but whats
> unique about that? nothing. Challance is like an exitement in life.
> That is why I need some input from all the people in this room who has
> thausands thausands hour of flying about a challanging and exiting PPL
> program structure.
> About my english, I still have to speak and write in English and
> Chinese on daily basis. Especailly at home, since i am a thirth
> generation here, I still pretty much attach to my grand-parents
> language. So appologize if the grammer a little off guess.
>
> Appreciate in advance for your input.
>
>
>
>
>
> Bob Moore wrote:
> > oscarm wrote
> > > my target is maximum 13-15 hours dual and the rest are solo. Is this
> > > sounds reasonable?
> >
> > You still haven't told us where you are located, and we certainly
> > can't answer your questions without knowing what regulations you
> > will be studying under. It doesn't sound as if English is your
> > native language?
> >
> > Bob Moore
>

Hi TF,

Thank you for your respond. That is true, I always told my wife that
this is an investment and not just a hobby. But i just want to make
sure that i am investing at the right school.

National average until they release solo is about 12-15 hours. I jsut
want to make sure that the school program is set up like that. From
AOPA also shows about 12-15 hours before solo also. So why they want 30
hours? Sport pilot might not a good choice for me, I want to be able to
fly with my family, vacation etc. I just finish my first flight, I
might looking around somewhere else to do some comparison.

Thanks TF

TF wrote:
> I sort of take exception to the comment the "everybody/anybody" can get PPL
> or finish university. Not everyone has the drive to see it to the end.
> (sort of 99% perspiration 1% inspriration theory)
>
> Flying is a real enjoyment and doing it just to do it "fast" just doesn't
> seem to be a really good reason. Maybe the new sport pilot lic is where you
> want to be. If you want to experience flight take a few lessons and havie
> fun on the flight sim should do it. I'm not sure you will be that safe with
> going for the min for everything. I trained in the East and learning to fly
> all of the seasons was worth the investment.
>
> Who knows maybe flying will turn into a love rather than a challange. Then
> welcome to the club.
>
>
> "oscarm" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> > Hi Bob,
> >
> > Thanks for your respond.
> > The airport is located at the E Class Airspace in Southern California.
> > My instructor always told me about the benefit to learn at the airport
> > with Class E airspace, which is probably true.
> > The reason that I put a target to my self, is to find out if the
> > simualtor really helps or not, and to find out if I still able to
> > compete with my self and my will. Its just a challange that will
> > motivate me to learn as hard as possible. Everybody can get PPL in
> > 60-70 hours and everbody can finish university in 4-6 years, but whats
> > unique about that? nothing. Challance is like an exitement in life.
> > That is why I need some input from all the people in this room who has
> > thausands thausands hour of flying about a challanging and exiting PPL
> > program structure.
> > About my english, I still have to speak and write in English and
> > Chinese on daily basis. Especailly at home, since i am a thirth
> > generation here, I still pretty much attach to my grand-parents
> > language. So appologize if the grammer a little off guess.
> >
> > Appreciate in advance for your input.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Bob Moore wrote:
> > > oscarm wrote
> > > > my target is maximum 13-15 hours dual and the rest are solo. Is this
> > > > sounds reasonable?
> > >
> > > You still haven't told us where you are located, and we certainly
> > > can't answer your questions without knowing what regulations you
> > > will be studying under. It doesn't sound as if English is your
> > > native language?
> > >
> > > Bob Moore
> >

TF wrote:
>
> Flying is a real enjoyment and doing it just to do it "fast" just doesn't
> seem to be a really good reason.

Not to mention that learning to fly WELL is more difficult than learning
to fly as quickly as possible. Anyone who uses time to solo or get to
the checkride as the major determinant of piloting skill is missing the
point. I soloed and got to my checkride rather quickly, but I count the
support of other local pilots (unloggable right seat flying time) and my
aerodynamic understanding from a radio control background as big boosters.

After reading some follow ups, and realizing that the OP hasn't actually
flown much, I'm wondering if he's misinterpreting a written syllabus.

For example, if you read the Jeppesen PP syllabus, it might appear that
you need 30 hours to solo, by the number of lessons and checks, but not
all of the time is actual Hobbs flight time. For example, the entire
syllabus includes at least three stage checks (flying with a different
instructor) before the checkride for a total of 4.5 to 5 hours of flight
time that isn't completely instructional, but is worthwhile neverless.

Then again, there's solo, and there's solo. Some free form instructors
may solo the student earlier than a school following a purchased
program, like the Jepp. I remember having to be proficient an all PTS
manuevers (less X-country skills), including engine-outs, before I was
allowed to solo in the home pattern at a 141 school. Others who worked
with less stuctured, independent instructors soloed far faster, but
spent just as much, or more time post-solo doing dual maneuvers.

Hi TF,

That is true flying is a real enjoyment, and its been my dream for a
long time. AOPA is a really good websides, i learned a lot from that
webside and actually open my eyes. I made a mistake choosing schools
without doing some research. I believe if I follow the school program,
it will take me 22 hours hoobs time until I get to pre solo 1 and 2.
and about 1 hour ground brieving before each flying lesson. Ground
school is separate.
Is there a standart program from FAA, or each flying school actually
set up their own program. Can I ask my instructur to teach me the radio
communication on the thirth flight instead of the 20th? Because the
requirements from FAA is only minimum of 40 combine hours, and I dont
see any standart curriculum.

Thank you TF


B A R R Y wrote:
> TF wrote:
> >
> > Flying is a real enjoyment and doing it just to do it "fast" just doesn't
> > seem to be a really good reason.
>
> Not to mention that learning to fly WELL is more difficult than learning
> to fly as quickly as possible. Anyone who uses time to solo or get to
> the checkride as the major determinant of piloting skill is missing the
> point. I soloed and got to my checkride rather quickly, but I count the
> support of other local pilots (unloggable right seat flying time) and my
> aerodynamic understanding from a radio control background as big boosters.
>
> After reading some follow ups, and realizing that the OP hasn't actually
> flown much, I'm wondering if he's misinterpreting a written syllabus.
>
> For example, if you read the Jeppesen PP syllabus, it might appear that
> you need 30 hours to solo, by the number of lessons and checks, but not
> all of the time is actual Hobbs flight time. For example, the entire
> syllabus includes at least three stage checks (flying with a different
> instructor) before the checkride for a total of 4.5 to 5 hours of flight
> time that isn't completely instructional, but is worthwhile neverless.
>
> Then again, there's solo, and there's solo. Some free form instructors
> may solo the student earlier than a school following a purchased
> program, like the Jepp. I remember having to be proficient an all PTS
> manuevers (less X-country skills), including engine-outs, before I was
> allowed to solo in the home pattern at a 141 school. Others who worked
> with less stuctured, independent instructors soloed far faster, but
> spent just as much, or more time post-solo doing dual maneuvers.

"oscarm" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Hi TF,
>
> That is true flying is a real enjoyment, and its been my dream for a
> long time. AOPA is a really good websides, i learned a lot from that
> webside and actually open my eyes. I made a mistake choosing schools
> without doing some research. I believe if I follow the school program,
> it will take me 22 hours hoobs time until I get to pre solo 1 and 2.
> and about 1 hour ground brieving before each flying lesson. Ground
> school is separate.
> Is there a standart program from FAA, or each flying school actually
> set up their own program. Can I ask my instructur to teach me the radio
> communication on the thirth flight instead of the 20th? Because the
> requirements from FAA is only minimum of 40 combine hours, and I dont
> see any standart curriculum.
>
> Thank you TF

You need to run (not walk, RUN) away from that school as fast as you can.
Each school can establish it's own syllabus but it must meet FAA minimum
criteria to be approved. The Cessna FAR 141 approved training syllabus has
you soloing on flight lesson ten, (not necessarily the tenth flight, some
lessons may take more than one flight to complete) and radio procedures from
flight lesson one. I would like to see a copy of the school's syllabus you
are with.

Allen

oscarm wrote:
> Because the
> requirements from FAA is only minimum of 40 combine hours, and I dont
> see any standart curriculum.

The closest thing to a "standard curriculum" is the FAA's "Practical
Test Standards" (PTS), which is the document containing the _minimum_
standards you will be judged on when you take check rides or flight
reviews. You can buy your own copy at most flight schools for about $7,
or you can ask to read one at the school.

School syllabuses and instructional materials are commercial products,
sold by private companies, like Jeppesen. Is there a brand name on your
books?

Have you actually asked other live, local pilots about your school's
reputation? You know, walk up to some of them, in person, and TALK to
them about your school and other local schools? Can you post the name
of the school here?


I think trying to get any school to teach you things in a different
order based on what you (as a ~2 hour student) think is correct is
silly, since right now you really don't know enough to know what you
don't know.

Hi Barry,

It is part of my mistake. I did not make a comparison with other
school. I thought all school have standart step by step lesson. Like I
said AOPA really open my eyes, before I spent more money i will check a
couple schools so I can invest wiselly. I have Gleims FAA test prep and
also Gleim's PTS. They are all good book but I heard from my school
that ASA is the one that FAA used. I might need to buy ASA book. I also
purchased the VFR and IFR pilot communication training software. Very
effective training tools, but again I can not compare with the actuall
comm, since I never really use it in the real world.
I prefer not to put the school name in here, dont get me wrong, they
are all super nice and proffesional, its just the training schedule
that i have questions about. I cant really say that this is a good
school or not since i cant really compare with anything. I'll stop by
to a couple school this weekend and than I can do some comparison.



B A R R Y wrote:
> oscarm wrote:
> > Because the
> > requirements from FAA is only minimum of 40 combine hours, and I dont
> > see any standart curriculum.
>
> The closest thing to a "standard curriculum" is the FAA's "Practical
> Test Standards" (PTS), which is the document containing the _minimum_
> standards you will be judged on when you take check rides or flight
> reviews. You can buy your own copy at most flight schools for about $7,
> or you can ask to read one at the school.
>
> School syllabuses and instructional materials are commercial products,
> sold by private companies, like Jeppesen. Is there a brand name on your
> books?
>
> Have you actually asked other live, local pilots about your school's
> reputation? You know, walk up to some of them, in person, and TALK to
> them about your school and other local schools? Can you post the name
> of the school here?
>
>
> I think trying to get any school to teach you things in a different
> order based on what you (as a ~2 hour student) think is correct is
> silly, since right now you really don't know enough to know what you
> don't know.

Hi Allen,

Thank you for your respond.
I will try to type it into a word document. Perhaps you can help to
customized the program or at least you can give a good input. It wont
work if I scan it since the copy is not very clear
Do you have a yahoo messenger? perhaps we can disscuss this over there.
I am afraid that the training program is a confidential for them
eventhougt they never told me that. I am very exited to joint the pilot
club.
Are you an instructor?


Allen wrote:
> "oscarm" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> > Hi TF,
> >
> > That is true flying is a real enjoyment, and its been my dream for a
> > long time. AOPA is a really good websides, i learned a lot from that
> > webside and actually open my eyes. I made a mistake choosing schools
> > without doing some research. I believe if I follow the school program,
> > it will take me 22 hours hoobs time until I get to pre solo 1 and 2.
> > and about 1 hour ground brieving before each flying lesson. Ground
> > school is separate.
> > Is there a standart program from FAA, or each flying school actually
> > set up their own program. Can I ask my instructur to teach me the radio
> > communication on the thirth flight instead of the 20th? Because the
> > requirements from FAA is only minimum of 40 combine hours, and I dont
> > see any standart curriculum.
> >
> > Thank you TF
>
> You need to run (not walk, RUN) away from that school as fast as you can.
> Each school can establish it's own syllabus but it must meet FAA minimum
> criteria to be approved. The Cessna FAR 141 approved training syllabus has
> you soloing on flight lesson ten, (not necessarily the tenth flight, some
> lessons may take more than one flight to complete) and radio procedures from
> flight lesson one. I would like to see a copy of the school's syllabus you
> are with.
>
> Allen

Jack Cunniff > wrote:
> Learning at an airport in a Class E airspace (which we call a UNICOM
> field, because it doesn't have a tower) has the advantage of doing more
> flying and less talking on the radio.

I'm not so sure about this. I fly out of a towered (Class D) field, and I
find I spend *less* time on the radio there than I do at untowered fields.
It took me a while to get used to talking on the CTAF, because there are
so many more calls to make.

I did some pattern work tonight -- 17 times around. I probably had about
22 transmissions. At an untowered field, it'd have been over 70 to do the
same work.

.... Alan

--
Alan Gerber
gerber AT panix DOT com

oscarm > wrote:
: HI Jack,

: Thanks for your respond. you went soloed after jsut spent 7 hours, wow
: thats a record so far i know. I dont think the program at my flying
: school is set up that way. But 7 hours is too low for me, I am not
: confident to do it in only 7 hours. I gave my self max of 13 hours, but
: 30 hours is seems way to much. Perhaps a $3000 budget is to low in
: california and i dont mind paying more as long as they dont take an
: advantage. 2 hours slow flight introduction i think that a little to
: much. You are right about Class E airspace, can be a disadvantage also.
: Thank you for your input, its really helps and I will defiinitely sign
: up with AOPA.

I'll agree with what's already been said.... RUN away from the school requiring 30 hours before solo. The funny thing
about earning the PPL is that the regulations look completely black and white... 10 hours of this, 3 hours of that, this many
dual cross countries, this many solo, etc... The point you need to realize is that these number are the established *minimums*
required for the license. The actual amount required is completely determined by how long it takes you to learn how to do
everything. Ten hours at a non-towered field for solo sounds pretty reasonable for most people, but some people might take
30 hours before they get the basics required for solo flight learned.

My suggestion is as others have suggested. Try finding another CFI in the area and a plane you you can rent they can
instruct in. My guess is that $3000 will be too low for learning in California no matter how you cut it. If you're looking
for ways to save money and flight time, try "double-dipping" the required hours. For instance, if you're going on a
cross-country, land at a towered field and do your 3 solo T&L there then. If you're on your last dual cross-country, see if
you can get some of the enroute time under the hood for instrument practice. Not everyone can absorb this much info so it may
not work for you, but it's a way to keep the hours down if you can.

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA *
* Electrical Engineering *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

Cory Papenfuss wrote:
> Ten hours at a
> non-towered field for solo sounds pretty reasonable for most people,
> but some people might take 30 hours before they get the basics
> required for solo flight learned.

The national average for time-to--solo is currently about 17 hours.
As the 'required items before solo' continue to increase, doing it
in 10 hours is not reasonable. If one is a 'true teacher', and by
that, I mean...demonstrate, teach, evaluate... each of those 15
required items, 13-14 hours is a more reasonable estimate.

For example, an instructor must decide for each day's lesson, what is
the one or two things that the student will go home with, having truly
'learned', not just demonstrated.

If a student is allowed to attempt a landing during the first lesson
as the OP was, he will go home remembering nothing else, as we can
see in the his post.

A new student shows up for his first flight lesson having just passed
the knowledge test....what do I want him to go home KNOWING how to do:

1. PREFLIGHT...In the preflight briefing, explain each item on the list.
At the airplane, point-out each item using the checklist. Then
require the student to conduct a preflight using the checklist. If
you can do this in less than 30 minutes, you are a better man than I.
2. ENGINE START...Demonstrate the Pre-Start Checklist...Or! Just let the
student go through the checklist himself and you correct his
mistakes... ****-poor instructing technique. Demonstrate...help the
student the second time and then require the student to do it
correctly the third time through. Right!!! 3 engine starts.
Now.....he knows how to start the engine!. Maybe 20 min.
3. TAXI...Left/Right turns, stopping in a straight line, locked
brake turns, getting on and staying on the centerline. All of this is
not as easy for a beginner as we think, they try to steer with the yoke
and stop with just the right rudder/brake pedal just as in an
automobile. Make them taxi with their hands on their legs to break the
automobile habits.
4. ENGINE RUN-UP....Use checklist in the briefing room during the preflight
briefing without the sound of the engine running. In the run-up area,
demonstrate a proper run-up and then assist the student to do one.
5. TAKEOFF RUN...After a thorough preflight discussion of engine, propellor
and wind effects on the takeoff run, conduct at least two runs down the
runway with no intention of becoming airborne. If a student is faced
with the anxiety of becoming airborne for the first time, he will not
retain anything about what his feet were doing the the takeoff run.
6. AND FINALLY....Just one trip around the pattern with the student being
talked through the takeoff and initial climb but then becoming just a
passenger for the remainder of the pattern and landing. Do not send
him home frustrated because he didn't make a good landing on his first
flight

It takes a very good student to fully grasp the first five items above and
feel good about himself.

From FAR 61:

(d) Maneuvers and procedures for pre-solo flight training in a single-
engine airplane. A student pilot who is receiving training for a single-
engine airplane rating or privileges must receive and log flight training
for the following maneuvers and procedures:

(1) Proper flight preparation procedures, including preflight planning and
preparation, powerplant operation, and aircraft systems;

(2) Taxiing or surface operations, including runups;

(3) Takeoffs and landings, including normal and crosswind;

(4) Straight and level flight, and turns in both directions;

(5) Climbs and climbing turns;

(6) Airport traffic patterns, including entry and departure procedures;

(7) Collision avoidance, windshear avoidance, and wake turbulence
avoidance;

(8) Descents, with and without turns, using high and low drag
configurations;

(9) Flight at various airspeeds from cruise to slow flight;

(10) Stall entries from various flight attitudes and power combinations
with recovery initiated at the first indication of a stall, and recovery
from a full stall;

(11) Emergency procedures and equipment malfunctions;

(12) Ground reference maneuvers;

(13) Approaches to a landing area with simulated engine malfunctions;

(14) Slips to a landing; and

(15) Go-arounds.


Bob Moore
CFIing for 35 years